Have you ever wondered how emotional intelligence can go wrong in the workplace? In this episode Reggie and Lora, a seasoned social worker, look into the potential pitfalls of emotional intelligence in professional settings.
Discover when it's best to step away and let someone find the help they need on their own, as we share our experiences and Laura's expertise on navigating these complex situations.
Have you ever wondered how emotional intelligence can go wrong in the workplace? In this episode Reggie and Lora, a seasoned social worker, look into the potential pitfalls of emotional intelligence in professional settings.
Discover when it's best to step away and let someone find the help they need on their own, as we share our experiences and Laura's expertise on navigating these complex situations.
It's Reggie Natale, coming to you from a lovely city of Atlanta, georgia, going out to Laura in Texas, and you're in San Antonio, texas, today, though you say you might not be long you might be leaving there soon. There, Laura, you're a woman on the move.
Speaker 2:Who knows where you'll be next time. We have a conversation.
Speaker 1:I really am.
Speaker 2:Yes, really am. I was in Austin yesterday, so yes, What's your next on town?
Speaker 1:So what are the? if you have to live in Texas, for people who want to move there? what are the best towns to live there, Because you're in quite a bit of them? So, what are your best towns there? Have you lived in Dallas, Fort?
Speaker 2:Worth. I lived all over.
Speaker 1:Texas. So okay, so you've been in Dallas, fort Worth, okay, yes.
Speaker 2:We're very long time. I love Dallas and I think it depends on kind of what you're looking for. Austin is really a very pretty city. Of course it's the capital. It's got a lot of hills, It's part of a hill country. Texas is really beautiful. It kind of mimics California. I think it really is something that a lot of Californians, except for the heat, love about Austin Houston metropolitan. it is probably, if not number one, number two in the nation as far as diversity. Really, We'll talk about different ethnic groups.
Speaker 1:Yes, I didn't know that It is.
Speaker 2:Fort Worth County a few years ago was the most diverse county in nation.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Which is Fort Worth County, is in Houston.
Speaker 1:Yes, i love my diversity, mr. Diversity over here, i love it.
Speaker 2:It's extremely diverse, extremely diverse, but populated, well populated For sure. Then you have Dallas. It's gorgeous, it's pretty. You get the big city but it's still very clean and very pretty. Then there's San Antonio. We talked about this earlier. It is a very large Hispanic population. The culture and the roots are very. everything is very from Mexico and very you've got Aztec and of course you've got the Alamo, it's a lot of that culture there.
Speaker 2:Beautiful city, yes, but it's more. I would say it's a tourist town, definitely. Really, there is a little bit of something for everyone in Texas. Yes, it's a nice state. It's very hot and you still kind of deal with good old boy mentality in these little towns.
Speaker 1:I think you can get that at a lot of states in the South especially. I don't come from where I'm from. I'm in Atlanta, georgia. We know all about those situations here. One of the things I wanted to talk about today, or I would say, the thing I want to talk- about today because we've done so many emotional intelligence shows.
Speaker 1:I have you on all these shows because I want to tap into that in your social worker that seems to live inside of you there. You know those social workers, man. They want to save the world. man I work with a couple. They want to save the earth man.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Anybody is saveable to a lot of social workers. I think from a general humanity standpoint, it's admirable to have that point of view. What we're going to tap into today is more kind of like the other side. I'm going to take the other side here. I'll play devil's advocate, more so on the when does the emotional intelligence go wrong?
Speaker 1:We've talked about this also in other ways, but we've never talked about it specifically. We've talked about this in ways where, when you would talk about past social work jobs you've had where you might just have that person that just won't say do right, for a better, lack of better phrase. They just can't seem to get on track. no matter how much time and effort that you put into a person, i feel like you can only do so much for any person, whether it's a coworker or a friend of mine, a family member. I feel the same about this across the board, because I feel like people are going to have to want something for themselves in order to get to certain places in life, even if it's something small.
Speaker 1:everybody maybe need help every now and then. I don't mind giving them help Where this has. The reason this subject has come up for me is because I've had times in business where I didn't know if that really served everybody. right, when you're trying to extend so much emotional intelligence to one person, that's just not a great bit for any organization or something like that. I'm pretty sure you've seen this from a leadership standpoint, where you might have a team, you may have a person and maybe even like the person, but they're not necessarily great for the organization, for the team in general.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Stuff like that I'm going to ask you the basic question first, and then we'll kind of dig into specifics. Do you think there's times when there's just too much emotional intelligence, or do you think there's times where that can go wrong?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. That's coming from a person who really will go above and beyond what the average person will do to try to help someone. But they're absolutely people and moments and times and situations that you have to say you know I want this more for this person than they do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:And you really have to step away.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let's talk about the different times, because I'm pretty sure you've seen this in different areas, so let's talk about it. And how did you know to do that from a social worker standpoint? Because it would seem like from a profession that that's literally what the job is, right, you're there to work with certain elements of society and hopefully give them a boost in the areas that they need it.
Speaker 1:When did you know that it wasn't really working? Like did they just stop showing up? How did you know that a cause was so what of a lost cause? Because, you know, nobody ever wants to think anything. whether it's a task, a job, a person is a lost cause, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. So how did you kind of like reconcile those two feelings with yourself when you were in that social work setting?
Speaker 2:Well, i will say this when I first started out and I think I can speak for a lot of people in this profession you do think that you get into it for certain reasons. right, it doesn't pay.
Speaker 2:well, you are dealing with human nature And they're real loves, which is all over the place, which is, yeah, it can be emotionally draining, especially when you're dealing with really really tough situations that are very, you know, just emotional, tough situations.
Speaker 2:So people who get into the profession really have a passion for making a difference and for change, social change, and you know so, for me it was pretty early in my career and it didn't happen.
Speaker 2:It happened because the clients that I was working with ended up, you know, just kind of like not taking any of the help and doing the total opposite and getting right back into a situation that I had worked, along with some other people, really, really hard to get her out of. And it was it changed. It was personally and professionally eye-opening and hurtful, but I'm so glad that it happened and I had a really wise boss who kind of explained how, if I were to be successful in this field, how I needed to navigate through this field and what I needed to do, and it made perfect sense when he said that It was like an epiphany for me. You know, like do you want to help one person and exhaust all of your energy and your resources and your time into this one person who you know? you know, just like a bad relationship with the red flag.
Speaker 1:You see him.
Speaker 2:You know is not going to get there, or do you want to put your resources and your energy and your time and your knowledge and your passion and compassion into someone who just needs a little bit of help and a little bit of push, you know, a gentle push. That way you can help more people. And I had to decide right there, even though I will tell you I really still wanted to, you know, get that person who everyone else gave up on. But I had to professionally say, like, what is going to help more people, What is going to make a bigger impact? And so that's what it was. But I think, you know, just for my own personal reasons, being hurt and going through some things, it really is tough for me to not go for the person who everyone fit. Nope, There is no helping that And I refuse to get caught up in that. So, yeah, I slip.
Speaker 1:That's just the natural. That's the natural social work. That's why I said it's in you, no matter what job you do. I feel like I don't know if that is air. I don't think that's going to leave you because of what you did, the reasons that you said earlier. You'd only get into that if you feel a certain kind of way about helping people. And I don't feel like, even if you change jobs, that innate feeling goes away. I fight that innate feeling is still there.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's adjusted one way or the other, but I feel like it's still somewhat still there. Now you looked, you were also had people that you manage and stuff like this. And I'm going to look at this from a leadership standpoint, because this is where I've seen it, maybe you can bring this up on the show is I've seen this go horribly wrong in leadership perspectives, in leadership and from a leadership perspective.
Speaker 1:You can have people that you work with, and the way that I always look at this is I have to treat all of my teammates the same. After treating them same, hold them to the same standard. Anyway, i should say I'm not going to treat them the same because people who are better I'm going to treat better. You know, i'm going to treat you kind of like how what your work dictates you should be treated. If one person's showing up on time or early all the time and they're out performing, i'm not going to treat them the same as the person who shows up late in his underperforming Like that doesn't make sense. But I'm going to treat them fairly though. So they're all going to get treated fairly. I'm not going to play favorites or anything like that, so the playing favorite is kind of where I'm going to.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, let's say that you have a staff and let's say you have like 30 people on the staff and you have a couple of bad apples in there. I've seen HR departments go above and beyond to accommodate the bad apples, even when they were being kind of like a cancer to the job. Like everybody else, they're bringing down morale. These people are always seem to have a reason to why they can't accomplish things. When you have a sympathetic HR department that kind of lets that go for an extended period of time, at what point, laura, do you feel like it's not fair to the other people there, like how much help should you be extending to these people before?
Speaker 1:you just got to pull the plug for the better of the team, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, So you know, this is being in social work and then kind of going into this supervisory role and then coming off of the quiet quitting.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, i think one of the reasons and not to mention this this time that we're in right now, i think we'll the reasons. you know it's easy to say, wow, hr is really letting this person to buy gold folk, but I do remember a time when needing people so bad that you were willing to look over and feel them being late every day.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, you needed that person. You really did need that person. And then the other thing is people you know. There was a time where you were very conscious of the job you did. You gave it to a weak notice. People don't do that anymore. Hr is not allowed to say that someone was not good or great, or only allowed to say when that person works there, maybe if they, you know, are rehireable. Yeah, people can sue their HR, And so I think they're very afraid of you know, litigation and going to court and saying that's your name, you know they treat people bad.
Speaker 2:And now, of course, you know they made me work 41 hours, you know, and there's no work life balance. And so now you want to, you know you want to be that employer that is really. You know. We care about work life balance and PTO and things like that. So I think that is where HR kind of stands right now. They're very under-tyed. But as far as supervising people and you've got that person or people who are not doing what they need to do it it there is nothing that runs a really great employee off like seeing employees who do bare minimum, get that, not get, you know, nothing happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not be held accountable, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:There is nothing that makes people feel horrible. And so at some point, even when you need people, like you have to be able to say I cannot allow this, because it really is setting a bad example for it And it's for the people who are doing the right thing. That's frustrating. And so, again, you have to say to yourself okay, you know, what's more important here Is it do I really need these, these people or person so bad that I'm willing to accept this, this, this, this? And you really have to ask those tough questions And if not, like you really have to let them go. And, of course, you have to do it the right way. But you know, which also means if I let you do this for a year and then all of a sudden I'm like listen, this is not working. And you're like you know they are like well, for 365 days it's been working. So you know it's tough, like I think you've got to knit that in the bud really really quickly.
Speaker 2:Me too, and not let it go on If you can you know everybody's not able to do that, but if you can, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think you bring up a solid point And I want to pick it back off the other point about okay, you have the HR situation where you're either such so so risk averse from a litigation standpoint it is that somebody get away with murder or you have situations where you need the bodies And you're like, well, i need the body, so I'm going to keep this person around, but what ends up happening is just like what you said it runs off other people. So what do you end up doing is you keep one person, but then you who? you don't know how many people you've ran off. You know, because a lot of people just quit and they don't really give you a real reason or anything like that. But they've complained about this person constantly to fellow co workers, you know. But it just seems like management deaf ears on management and to a lot of times, from a management standpoint, they're not the ones having to directly to directly work with the people you know, so they can.
Speaker 1:It's easy for them to say an HR department to be like, hey, well, yeah, you just got to find a way to get along. You guys don't have to like. Remember that, remember that phrase. You guys have to like each other. You just got to kind of find a way to get along. That's forget about that. Like you don't. You don't have to like each other, but that's, to me, just a way to sweep everything under the rug that a person does. You know. Of course you don't have to like. I don't even think you have. That even goes. That goes without saying. Of course you don't have to like person, but a person should be forced to do at least 80% of the job that I'm doing because I'm getting we're getting paid similar. So I don't want to come in and see a person who's just not carrying their weight but is still sitting at the same table as the rest of us who are and not being held accountable. And I do believe that you have to be able to have a certain level of accountability from an organizational standpoint, to have a certain level of standard, because otherwise your standards will start to drop with there's no accountability.
Speaker 1:If you don't care how people look, you don't care how they show up, if you don't care when they show up, these things will start to have an effect on people who are like Well, what am I doing at doing more of the work, because this person is is always late. I have to do more of the work for them. Maybe they have to leave early all the time. Now, what about the personal issues? Because you know some people will bring their personal into. Oh, i got a family issues, i got to pick up my kid, i got to do this, i got to do that. Is there a certain amount of emotional intelligence there that has to be nipped in the bud? When is it your? when is your personal life? your personal life versus what is professional? How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:Right, have I dealt with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, i said how have you dealt with it? Because I have definitely dealt with it, But I assume people in leadership positions have dealt with it. If you have, how have you dealt with it?
Speaker 2:I have, and I'm going to be honest with you, lizzie. That was me at some point going to school working having a toddler, and if they were sick it was just me.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I've had supervisors who said bring them in You know, it's why they're not making a lot of noise Just bring them in for the day, which helped me greatly if they couldn't go to the daycare or my son couldn't go to the daycare. And then I've had supervisors who said, yeah, well, that's not my problem, Figure it out. Yeah, So I do. Pretty much everyone that I supervise has children And I try to put myself in their place.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I do is I'm really big on planning. Like, if we plan things out and you've got to plan A, plan B, plan C, we can work things out right. If you tell me three weeks in advance you've got this doctor's appointment for your child, the dentist appointment, you know we're good. If it's a soccer game, I will tell you leave early, But you have to make sure that everything is taken care of when you leave. I really am not that person who says if someone has to take off and leave early every single day of the week, I would allow them as long as they have taken care of their business, As long as their work is done. I am not a micromanager.
Speaker 1:Me neither.
Speaker 2:What I need is yeah, i don't even believe that it takes 40 hours in a week for your work to get done. Sometimes it takes 60, sometimes it takes 20. And if it takes 20, i really don't mind paying you for 40 because you're going to do 60 the next week. So I'm not that type of person. But you really have to have your everything in order, like if you're going to leave early every day because you've got to go pick up your daughter, let's say, from school at 3 o'clock And you're supposed to stay there until 5. Absolutely have no problem with that, but your stuff better be done Like. Nothing can be lacking And I think people appreciate that too. It has given me loyal, loyal people.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I can ask them to do anything And because I allow them these little soccer games and parent-teacher meetings and leave and early for lunch with their husband or whatever, there's nothing I can't ask of them.
Speaker 1:You know what's strange is I'm very much with the figure it out person. I think I think I'm both Because when you were just giving that example just now, laura, i was thinking which one of those do I fall into? Do I fall into the person who's going to be like bring your kid in, or do I fall into the figure it out person? I feel like I'm a little bit of both. I find I'm a little bit of both Because I think sometimes Well, I think it depends on the person, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because sometimes you need to help. You need to help sometimes And life can be hard. So I'm sympathetic to that. Like life can be hard, and if it's not an every single day thing, if it's not an every single one thing, and, like you said too, i give a lot of flexibility to my teammates who handle their business more so than my ones who don't, you get no flexibility.
Speaker 1:And the ones who do, you get extreme flexibility. I'll let them, let me. They can just come up to me and say, hey, i need to go for whatever reason. If you're a hard worker, absolutely, absolutely, see, whatever you see, see you later.
Speaker 1:You got to take off time, whatever. When people have to take off time for things, or maybe they're coming in later for things and stuff like that, you can accommodate that for your hard workers. But I feel like your hard workers have put in that work already to set that table, so to speak, for themselves, so that when these things do happen, i'm going to give them more leeway, but at the same time, for people who aren't that way, from playing devil's advocate, i've had to figure it out myself, so I know what that means And I know that I'm not going to look at people as if they're worse than I am. If I could figure it out, you could figure it out. So I do definitely get that point of view as well, and I'm sorry. I think you were about to say something. I cut you off.
Speaker 2:No, i agree with you wholeheartedly And I think it depends on the person. I think if you've got a hard worker who never asks for anything, you trust that when they do that they're telling the truth, that they really need their help. And then you've got some people who just take advantage. I had a young lady And this was the hardest thing for me. She was trying to get her children back. Well, actually I can say that she was not. She was in a position to do that, but she really wasn't trying hard And she was just, when I tell you, royally screwing up. I'm talking feeling.
Speaker 2:Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're out of here, yeah, and so I'm giving well, because I know she's trying to get her kids back from CCS. I'm like listen, give it back. Let's write a letter, what happened? Because I know. And the last thing she did I was just like you've got to go. And she was like but I won't get my kids back. And I was like I don't think you really want to.
Speaker 2:Because everything that you're doing is counterproductive. Like I have given you, i have offered her she had to go to training And she was like, well, the bus doesn't go there And I'm like, ok, i was going to get you Like, those are the types of things that I do Well now, because you know.
Speaker 2:And then I was like, OK, I get what is going. So, yeah, there are times where it is difficult, But you have to make that choice, And the things that you are not willing to correct, those are the things that other people in their eyes, you're willing to accept. Do you feel like there's like a line between?
Speaker 1:self-sufficiency there and just like because there's a baseline right there of self-sufficiency, right Like there's a baseline of kind of like my jobs have never told, like I've never depended on my jobs to get me to the job, if that makes sense. You know I've never depended on them to like to figure out how I was going to get there, because if you had told them that in an interview, they wouldn't have hired you. If you had told them that in an interview some of the things that a lot of people asked for after they got the job if you had told the people that before they hired you, then they would look at other applicants, they would look at other candidates to see if they were a better fit than which you are. And because I'm constantly thinking there's a better fit out there, you're probably taking up space for somebody else that we could hire and get in here.
Speaker 1:There is a certain amount of you need to be handling your own business like. I am very much on that. We've come to talk about this before And I'm definitely harder on that sense of like you need to be handling your own business and I hold my listen. I hold my friend family to that own standard and myself to that own standard. I'm not holding people to a different standard than I hold myself loved ones to. Is there such a thing as so much emotional intelligence that it becomes a crutch for people?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You can definitely enable people And I probably am that person And you know you're going back. I think we really I don't think you ever should you were saying I don't think I've ever asked a job And we would never think to say, okay, well, i'll work here. But let me just say this I'm going to need to do this.
Speaker 1:Right, did you come pick me up? You need to do that. Give me a ride over here, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, and you should a lot. I don't think that is their problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's not it.
Speaker 2:I don't think you should ever look to your job to make all of these special accommodations unless you, you know, are have a disability. Those are the only times I think a job should be required to make accommodations. But other than that, i'm no job really should be ever should be required to make any kind of accommodations. I, admittedly, will do these things just because that's where I come from.
Speaker 2:I know what it's like to you know your car stop in the middle of the road and you're trying to catch the bus and you, well, i know what that's like and I've never forgotten that and that is why I go above and beyond and do things that really I probably shouldn't. But on the flip side, no one should ever ask for a job to do those things or expect those things, and it really does. I think you can enable people and I think we as as a society I see us heading that way. I mean, i'm not saying what I do is right. I think I am not. That's not common, but you know, i can try all I want to. That's just kind of in me.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But I do see a society that, like these younger generation, you know they'll call We've hired them, They won't show up for orientation, They'll call the third day of orientation. Oh yeah, by the way, I had a you know something major happen. So can I just come to the next orientation And you think like you have the audacity to like, And I don't know if we're not teaching them proper. I've had somebody come in or in an interview and sit in the style in the chair and talk about smoking weed.
Speaker 1:I've had people come in with flip-flops in the interview.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, i've had people in the interview. I think to myself do I make people feel that comfortable, or do they really not know that that is inappropriate, Because I do have a way of making people feel really comfortable, because I know interviewing can be very intimidating and overwhelming. Especially for young people who haven't done it. So I make them feel very comfortable. But then they get really comfortable and I think okay, was that me, did I do that Or like did you hire any of these people?
Speaker 1:Did any of these people get the job? Laura?
Speaker 2:Let me see what the young lady who had the flip flop on do you get the job? She didn't end up working out the one who was sitting Indian style, you know. She was like yeah, cuz I work for a farm. And I was like, oh, that's cool, like the ghost and you know animals. And she's like no, no, no, no, like it's like a No, what a farm. Okay, so are you gonna be able to pass the?
Speaker 1:drug. Yeah, that's legal in some states, i mean, and at least she came straight forward like I'm not bad.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna pass that to not in Texas. I'm not passing. Are you high now? that's what I'm Right now, so put your to swing your your legs all around the chair and I Don't know. I, i Seer for this younger generation. I didn't have to tell my son who's going to an interview And he had some jeans and they had like some hope. Oh, oh, no, no, sir, and if we're having a problem, sure to have this. And I said no, you can't wear those jeans in an interview, like no, that's not appropriate, it doesn't look professional.
Speaker 2:You know you don't have to wear a tie, but no, i'm gonna wear some slack and a nice shirt. So I don't know what, what we're, what we're teaching this generation, and then they show up to work late, don't call in. I don't know, reggie, i don't know it's, it's, it's different, it's different. This workforce is a little different than you know my age.
Speaker 1:For sure, I think that is.
Speaker 1:I think, it's different than it was even 10 or 15 years ago. It's different, it's extreme from what I've seen, i think. I do think, though, that being said, there was a baseline for professional etiquette. There's a baseline for it. And do you have to wear a tie? No, but can you put up a button up on? do you probably don't want to rock the jeans, and that's probably not the best time to do that, like some people are in unfortunate It's very unfortunate situations Where they lack the resources to have any kind of professional clothes, i told people to go to Goodwill and get a couple things at least, just to get through the interview and get your first couple checks, but you know some people.
Speaker 2:The motivation.
Speaker 1:They exactly, exactly so that you know you're not looking crazy on interviews. But you have to know and that's not necessarily where some of the people that I've seen this they don't fall into those categories, they're just very kind of casual, have a very casual kind of approach to life. And what are the signs then for you? That, because I know, for me it's instant like if you're, i'm more of a person who You're gonna have to adhere to certain things, or I'm not gonna have credibility with my more harder-working Teammates. I'm not gonna have credibility with them if I'm letting you get away with murder, so I'm going to not have a very high bar for Taking care of these issues. You know you got.
Speaker 1:If I see one or two of them, i'm gonna I'm gonna say necessarily Move to have you like fire, cuz it takes a lot for me to call for a person's job because some people just have bad days. So I'm not. It takes a lot for me to do that, but I will definitely take steps to make sure that I'm seeing you less and to make sure that my teammates aren't as affected by you. But where is that for a person like you, though, cuz you're gonna go further. Now what it. What are the signs that makes you finally cut somebody off from That type of help or that type of sympathy that you may be showing towards them?
Speaker 2:I think when You stop Putting forth an effort, then You know that's my key to stop putting forth an effort. Hmm I see, and when I say putting forth an effort, i mean like You're not even calling in, that you're gonna be late, like you just showing up, like yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's a base I you know, everybody got their phones. So I yeah, not an excuse right in today's time. Yeah at all, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So you put forth no effort. I certainly am not and You know, even when I was doing social services and you know, willing to do Move mountains for you. If I move one you gotta move to. I will not work harder on your behalf than you. Well, i, you know I will point you in the direction, but at some point you've got to take a step. So That that's it for me. If, when you put forth no effort, then that it really is, you're begging me to stop putting forth effort.
Speaker 1:I Don't think that's unfair at all there definitely appreciate you taking some time out here, lord, to discuss these things, because I like tapping into your Social workers. Like the opposite side of me, i have no inner social worker in me whatsoever, so I like bringing on a person who's way more compassionate than I am to discuss these subjects, and I appreciate you taking some time out here, laura.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. We got a fine and healthy balance between the two of us. Because I can, mine can be a little bit, you know, on the Bar end of the spectrum to. So, as always, i always enjoy talking to you, reggie.
Speaker 1:Well, this is Reggie to check us out. Stitcher a heart radio, google podcast, ever podcast. Butterfly, wherever you find your podcast. See you next time.