In this episode we talk about the pressure to pick sides in complex issues and examine the role of the United States in these ongoing conflicts.
This Reggie atl, coming to you from love city of Atlanta, georgia, going out to the always beautiful weather City of Los Angeles with the now Lewis to know how's it going.
Speaker 2:No, I'm splendid, you know I'm not here enjoying everything nice, sunny, warm. I mean, it's winter, so it's warm.
Speaker 1:What are we guys doing with 70? There is like 68.
Speaker 2:Frigid, frigid 76, I don't oh.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you were even able to join us for this show. I appreciate you. You take us some time out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I should make some other check on you first and be like, hey, I was the weather out there and if it's, like you know, 73 will we'll schedule for another week, see. So there's been some crazy things going on around the world and and somebody I wasn't really gonna do a show on On this particular subject, because there's a touchy subject on both sides of the issue, especially what's going on Israel, with Israel and Palestine right now, and that's been, I, kind of an ongoing situation for anybody's even remotely paid attention to that. It's been an ongoing situation, I think, since Israel was established here 1947, like it's been on every since then, like it's been issues every since, every since its inception. So We'll kind of talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 1:I had a coworker who was kind of like the we're gonna go to war and it's like it's gonna be that this world war and they're just thinking like the world's already gonna come to an end and stuff like that. And those are some of my younger coworkers, I mean he's coerced like like 19 and 20. They just like it's over, like it there's no, there's no reason to go on. Have you know? I know you haven't lived on the rock, but not everybody pays attention to this stuff? Have you looked into our scene and get asked up on on the news and stuff to even watch the news? And now, not everybody Watch the news like I do. I'm on news junkie. You watch? Yeah, I watch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I watch news. I want to be informed about what's going on, even the good, the bad, whatever. But I do know people who will not watch the news. I was like, how, like? How do you, how do you exist? How are you not?
Speaker 1:right, it's oblivious to stuff, right, it's walking around. I mean that must be a nice life, though right to just not know what's going on ever. Just know who our last president was like? Do you even know what that was like?
Speaker 2:Nobody told him. No, it's weird, I guess All exposed.
Speaker 1:I mean it's it's it's a tragic situation and, you know, even with the Russian and Ukraine situation situation, because I feel like that's it that kind of ties in, because you have all these Factors right, not just what's going on with Israel and Palestine. It's not like the Russia Ukraine situation came to a head, because that's something that started. It's something that's kind of ongoing as well. And then you have North Korea said they're gonna be probably testing news, like they always say. South Korea said they're like that they're going to Try to remove the regime. If they do, you have all these issues, you know, and China's always constant I don't mess with us, no matter what. So you have all these issues kind of kind of come to a head. Do you remember a time in our lifetime where there was just so much stuff happening at the same time?
Speaker 2:I don't. I mean, maybe because I was younger I was unaware of all of that, because you know, when you're your kid you're like out of sight, out of mind, you know. But now it's just, I don't. I don't feel like there was a time like like we have now. I have nothing to relate it to. So I think that's why I'm just like this is this is kind of crazy, like this. Just the last couple of years, the last five years, I just been wild right.
Speaker 2:Wow, I'm like how are they gonna tell people about this?
Speaker 1:It's interesting because you think about the times in the past, right? So when you think about past times, past wars, past times of conflict, civil rights era here in the United States and things like that and even other, you go back to these ancient Eras. Are they like bubonic plague and certain things that have just changed whole, whole cultures and countries and in areas and people live through them? You know and you wonder, like man, what was that like? But here we are and we're not living to something like the bug play, but People and you do have what hopefully won't be a world war but a ton of different ongoing conflicts at the same time. I don't know if I feel like this is the closest we've been to like an actual war situation, only because we I Don't really want to say that until it actually happens. You know to me like I feel like there's so much with people, everybody having nukes and everything. I think there's like a mutual interest in that not happening.
Speaker 2:What are your no, I would definitely agree, like self-preservation is the way the US likes to go. So I just don't see us really going all out for anything. But I also think we have different technology available to us that wasn't around before Internet, all the end to cut things off. You know there's, there's different, there's a whole this, a whole nother set of circumstances that I just think, even if we did go to pull on more, it was just I don't know if it would be the same as before. I mean not that I remember it before, but I'm just saying like, would it be it? Would it? It would be Cyber war. I don't think it would be. Just, you know boots to the ground, all kind of stuff like drones and everything else.
Speaker 2:Like you'd actually you, we might be shocked to see what the US has in store for people, like what they've been working on in the military and all of that, because you know a lot of that stuff. They don't really disseminate that information everybody. But I'm like we might be shocked to find out like, whoa, y'all, y'all have that capability. Oh, you could do that like Is that okay, is this ethical? I feel like that would really that would be the way that the US would go and it's a little scary, it honestly, to see Distance of a be on the, on the edge of that, like to be so close to that kind of reality. It's kind of crazy. Because then I'm thinking as a kid, you never even thought about that, I wouldn't, that would seem so distant right.
Speaker 2:Yes, and now it's like it's present. And if you don't watch the news, you don't read these things you don't know, educate yourself on that. You would have no clue and just be shocked. I'm like, oh, what's, what's that Something dropping on my city like oh, they warned us last week on the news. You didn't hear about it, bob like.
Speaker 1:So do you think to know that, because these things are, can be very nuanced and and actually no, before I even ask you that, what question I was gonna ask you? There are people that I've talked to with the, with the current situation going on, that are very passionate on both sides of that issue. Have you had anybody in your life, or no, anybody like that. It was just very Passionate either. On the Israel side are very passionate on the Palestinian side has been. Both seem to have sympathizers, no matter what has happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, and it's kind of a weird place to be because I understand their feelings on it as far as, like you know, these are your people, this is your culture, this is, this is your life and it's so deeply affected. But also having the other side of the coin, being like like being Israeli, being Palestinian, and they, like I don't even I Am not well versed up to really pick a side on those matter what's going on with them? Because it's their life, it's not mine, you know. But I also understand like there's gonna be so many people affected and Like how do you, how do you come to resolution for this kind of thing? Like there's nothing that's gonna appease both sides, because so many people have lost stuff and when you're hurt, her people hurt people correct so I Don't know.
Speaker 2:It's hard. It is hard. You want to be apathetic. I want to have a listening ear. That's like who? Like Are you there? Are they gonna force people? Like you know you got to be with us or you got to be with them and that's. It was like it's so complex.
Speaker 1:I Do you think that there's a tasteful way to discuss these topics without somebody just getting absolutely upset about it? Because I think what? Sometimes you're just at least with me. A lot of times when I'm listening to people discuss topics, it's just trying to get a better understanding for their perspective and for their way of viewing it, without just looking at the news. You know what I mean. And then coming to my own conclusion, because just look at the news.
Speaker 1:I'm still very far from removed, I think, for Americans we've been very privileged to watch wars because somebody told me they were like I think we're going to war, or they'll know. Somebody told me that they're their parents. I think we're going to war and I'm like. You know, we're in America. We watch wars here. We don't go to them.
Speaker 2:We're very third party.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly Like we see it from a distance and we've had the privilege of being able to see these things from a distance. So when discussing these situations with other people, I try to keep that in mind. You know what I mean, that I'm just watching it through a screen, no matter where that news source may be, because I do like to watch very new sources so I can get different perspectives. You know, what you're seeing on CNN is not going to be the same thing you see on Al Jazeera, so to speak.
Speaker 2:You know what I?
Speaker 1:mean Like you're going to see very different perspectives here. So what I like to watch is to see the different perspectives, because it gives you a more nuance view of things you know and then you can kind of try to have these conversations. Do you think there's a tasteful way to have these conversations without like disagreements, because it's been troubling for some people.
Speaker 2:No, because the people, the feelings are always there and you can't get past it. So I guess I would pose to you ready Is there a way to care for the people and not the cause?
Speaker 1:That's interesting because I think so right, like because the human cost, no matter what, is catastrophic, so to speak, like the human cost and the cost of having to rebuild infrastructure and stuff like that and of course you'd rather buildings be knocked down than people killed, but at the same time it does take, it does affect their life and their livelihood and the way they see it, there is the hope that some of these people, in having these countries, may be drastically diminished when everything around you is crumbling. You know what I mean For what you feel like your future may be. So I think that you can care for the human cost. What ends up happening is and I think in this situation especially, you'll have something like Hamas and then you'll have people identifying Hamas with Palestinian people and kind of lumping them together. You know what I mean. And they're not the same thing. It'd be like a particular group in the United States and that group representing the whole of the United States. You know what I mean. Just because it's a group that originated in the United States, it might have nationalist type views or whatever kind of views they have, because they'll have people who speak for these organizations, who come on and speak and they're given their perspective for what they think these are.
Speaker 1:And I think, ultimately, if the human cost is always kind of like your North Star, so to speak, if you're always just discussing just what that human cost may be, then you're able to discuss these things a little bit more. I kind of agree with you in a sense that for people who have family in either area it's going to be harder for them, right? Because it's realer to them. To us it's just a conversation, you know what I mean. We can talk about it, then we can go on with our lives. For them it's realer to them, and if they lost somebody, forget about it, right? Because if you lost somebody you're not in a mood to really talk because that's been a major cost that you've got to pay, your family's paid, you paid friends, family and emotionally that you've paid and also just moving forward. In general, it doesn't seem like there's anything changing on the horizon soon enough. Do you see it that way, or is there anything? Do you see it coming to a quicker solution?
Speaker 2:No, I don't. I think it's because I don't know the resources that Hamas has behind them and I think that would play a major role in how long this is going to be and the outcome itself. Who's going to support who? Pretty much, and I think because there's other third parties that have vested interests, this could be a long drawn out thing. As to the level and severity of it, I don't know. I would hope it would be minimized as far as human cost and the lives that are impacted and involved and all of that. You don't want to see millions lost Nobody wants to see that.
Speaker 2:But I really couldn't say right now, like I really couldn't say it's so unpredictable at the moment, because everybody is saying a lot of things about what's going on and you see the TikToks, you see all the videos like this is what's really happening or no, this is what's really happening. And then, oh no, this was debunked, it wasn't a real. There's propaganda and it's like what do you whirlwind of information? How do you say so much time to sift through it all and inform of the plane after that? But I would, but then it's hard to say because I would want it to be short. But I'm like then again, who's going to win, like who's going to come out on top? And then you don't know what side to go for, or if there even is a side. I mean I guess you could say the human side, but that's like that's such a that's on both sides in it.
Speaker 1:Right, because that that does. It's like that. The non-answer answer right yeah. When you know like that and I can do, people would say that you, if you were ahead that perspective, I don't know if it's actually fair, but I understand it if people feel like you're waffling when you say that, but I wouldn't be personally that would genuinely be it, because I'm not there.
Speaker 2:I haven't my experience.
Speaker 1:I haven't lived it to really be able to give an educated answer on which side is right, because sometimes it depends on where you come along in a conflict. Right, if you were to see and I'm gonna give the Russian and Ukraine conflict as an example if you were to see Ukraine Moving tanks and stuff into Russia and seeing what the human cost there is, if you were to see that now it's more understandable because you know Russian, was. It was there first in Ukraine. But if you're a person that doesn't really understand that and you only see that and you're not really educated on how the situation started, because some of these situations whether you're talking about Issues around the world or the situation that's happening with with Palestine and Israel started so long ago that it just depends on where you are caught up at, like where did you come along in this in in, in the whole picture. So if the whole picture is 70 something years or or 60, 50, 60, 70 years, the last biggest attack is like big roughly 50 years ago in Israel. Yeah, you have.
Speaker 1:Depending on where you come along on that timeline, you might switch to blame or switch your perspective. It's depending on where along on that timeline you come. So I think that you could always care about the people because, as we are in this country and this is something that when, when Trump was our president, you know, people looked at us as like a country where Trump was our leader, despite the fact that most human beings in our country did not vote for the guy, but that was like the representative. And if you were looked at it from the outside of the country, you might have lumped all that everybody into that Together. And I feel like you know in it's very easy to do in our country to look at other countries and kind of just lump them all, like you know. Well, we'll just lump it all together, but it's not necessarily that easy. A terrorist organization or an organization from a place May not represent what the actual human beings there want. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they don't speak for everyone. Um, let me say same thing they kind of do for the black community. See that one guy saying something is like up, he's the leader of them. Now, we know we just met yesterday, let's reel it in. But no, I think I can definitely see and understand that and I think that's the hard part right now. It was like who everybody's looking for, who's the voice of the Palestinian people Outside of what Hamas is doing there? Like and then seeing them as separate, seeing, seeing them for who they are and what they're going through and what they've been going through. But it goes back to what you're saying is like who, who side are you on? Who? Which one do you support? You don't know because who you don't know. The retaliation about the thing, like who's been retaliating? It's that we did this because they did that, you did this, they did that. It was like ever that's been going on for so long. Who knows who was the beginning act, what is the start? Um, it is so muddy, like, how do you even begin?
Speaker 1:Do you think it's even worth? Because you see a lot of people on social media jumping on one side or the other right, I stand behind X or I stand behind X or like whatever side they stand behind. Do you feel? And then maybe something about the walk of back, because they're not really. You know it was a knee-jerk reaction. They see the text, see the pictures and stuff like that. They do a knee-jerk reaction and even though the intent may have been there, the way that they're going about expressing that is not necessarily in an intelligent fashion, because they're not really hip to everything that's going on. You know what I mean. Or the history, you know. You just listen, look, reacting to everybody else's reaction, so to speak. Have you seen any of that online? There have been some of the celebrities that have been forced to kind of walk that stuff back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty much. Or people forcing them to say something well, you, you're Palestinian or you're Israeli, so you should be saying something about this. And they're like they're American all their lives. They're like. They're like what are we going to do? Yes, I support my family living, but it's like what do you want me to do? Like I've never been like that person before.
Speaker 2:So how do you expect me to speak for these people, have that kind of connection with them? And it's like everybody wants you to pick a side and stand on it with a whole chest and you can't really do that right now because once again, it's like not everybody's well-versed on what's actually going on. They're only hearing personal statements, personal stories and things like that. So how can you really be expected to draw a well-rounded conclusion as to how you should believe on something? But then it's also like, if you do say something and you're like okay, this is what it is, I support these people and all this other stuff, you can't waffle, because if you go back they're like well, you're not really true for the cause and you're just saying this now just trying to please everybody, but then again you can't be neutral either. So damned if you knew, damned if you don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true. And with this this has been charged, super charged, like when you look at other conflicts around the world. Let's just take South and North Korea right, because that's been a conflict for a while on the Korean Peninsula and they've been divided for quite some time. So when you look at just that, you either are for the I wouldn't say dictatorship, but it's kind of like that. I want to look at it and see exactly how that government is structured, but it's definitely a dictator type government structure there Communists, I think maybe it is with the official or would be either for that or democracy. And there's such a contrast there between those two right. So a big contrast between North Korea and South Korea and some of these other areas and some of the other conflicts. They go a little bit deeper. Some of them have like religious undertones and stuff like that. It goes so much deeper.
Speaker 1:And when it comes to the Israel and Palestine situation, that's been such a tinderbox for so long. You know what I mean. It's been such a divisive issue for so long. Even before this happened, the NL people would get very passionate about one side or the other when discussing these things, and maybe social media makes it where we all feel like we just have to contribute to a certain degree. Right and say something, or we just come compliance if we're just silent. You know, silent compliance. You're just not saying anything. But I don't think there's anything wrong with not talking out of turn about things that you don't know all the way about. I've watched a ton of documentaries on these type of stuff because I'm a documentary junkie, but that doesn't mean I live it.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, like watching a documentary or something.
Speaker 1:It's not a lived experience, right, exactly, it's not like the same, it's not nowhere near the same. I can know certain things because it's an interesting conflict to me, so it's interesting to look at, but at the same time I'm never going to lose the fact that I'm not there.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I'm not having to deal with the real world consequences of this issue. So me just running out and saying, hey, I support one or the other, I'm like an idiot. You can have an awareness.
Speaker 2:That's about it.
Speaker 1:Right, like a skin, like a very thin layer of awareness. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I feel like in all of the other conflicts, that will most recent conflicts that we've seen, it's been a clear this is bad and this is good. Because you see the Russia, you see the Korean stuff for years, right, and you've heard, russia is bad. You see the North Korea stuff they're the social estate and one party and they're bad. We don't go with them and that's been. It's easier for Americans to get behind that because that's what the rhetoric has been for so long, versus what's going on with Palestine and for the Palestinians and the Israelis, we don't know. Because you see the stuff you see in documentaries, you see the Tik Toks, all the kind of stuff in social media that's kind of showed you like it's humanized these people and because of that it's been harder for us to pick a clear like no, this is bad, no, this is good. Because you see that actually it's hard to separate the people themselves from what their, their governments or everything else is doing.
Speaker 2:So when you see that is like well, I see these people as humans, as living their lives, just trying to, you know, make a living, just trying to get by, trying to survive, trying to make sure they got food, water, all kind of take care of their families, and then you see how they are mistreated and disrespected and not supported or the government's picking one side or the other type stuff and it's hard to really boost one side without like no putting down the other side.
Speaker 2:And it's really hard to pick a side for for something like that because, like I said, it goes back to it's not my lived experience. I'm not well versed in everything that's going on, but I do see these people as people so it's like you don't want them to get hurt. I know all anything Live with the trauma, the PTSD, the lost loved ones, all of that. I mean. If you've gone through loss, you know, understand how that is, in grief and pain and and then just wanted to get by and survive in the world. It's already hard enough. It's so complicated. Right now it's like it's a weird time to be around and see.
Speaker 1:It is. It is because I think that also it's the you just touched on something that a difference is the, the sea part. There's so many different ways to see that. Lived experience now, so you before, when we read one of these other wars, I feel like I'm seeing more about World War, the world, the World War II and stuff like that. Now that some of the stuff is coming out and they're read, they're re doing the footage and color and all that stuff, I feel like we, being so far removed, are actually seeing more of it than some of the people who were living at that time because there weren't as many mediums to see it.
Speaker 1:We can now we can go on like YouTube and see what happened in several wars, right, we can go back to certain documentaries and a lot of footage that you can go and see now that people from a technological standpoint back in the day just weren't able to see. And in this particular case, with social media, you get to see the real world?
Speaker 1:We don't we don't have to talk to nobody, right? Like, yeah, like you, there they are, they're live streaming from where they are. Like you don't have to like, go to a reporter, you don't have to go to a news organization, you can literally go to social media and see some of the atrocities. And I think that the humanity part is the tie that binds, so to speak, because that's the part that's. That's on both sides. There's humanity and catastrophic loss on both sides of the issue, no matter where you stand. I think that's a horrible situation.
Speaker 1:Do you think there's any way, because, people, it's a very polarizing issue. Is there any way to bring anybody to the other side of that issue? I've seen several of over the weekend. There's been several of marches and stuff like that that may happen in different cities, in states, here, and they'll be support on both sides of these things. Do you think there's any way to ever just have that, I want to say like a unifying, because this is not like a kumbaya, I don't want to like you know I don't do that.
Speaker 1:It's so once the bloodshed has happened? I'm kind of answering my own question here, because once the bloodshed has happened and once you've had it, where one just just giving their perspective, from what I've seen One person from Palestine, they were on a news organization and they were expressing that they feel like they're in the largest open air prison. You know what I mean. If they can't do anything, can't go anywhere, if they're oppressed, feel like they're being occupied and stuff like that. And then you have the other side where they'll come on and it's for, like you know, straight up, like they just been murdering. You know they want to murder all of us all together, though there's no real prospect of peace at all. So, apart, does the country, the US, have to play in any of this? And a lot of times people look at these situations around the world and I'm going to separate the Russia Ukraine situation, because I definitely feel like we would rather fight that war with our money than our soldiers. If we could support and send weapons and fighters to Ukraine, it's definitely better than sending human beings to Ukraine.
Speaker 1:And the Ukraine situation had shades of what? Of Nazi Germany, because that's what Hitler did back in the day. He took over certain areas. He annexed certain areas, took over certain areas until it couldn't be ignored anymore at a certain point. I'm not saying that that's what Vladimir Putin would have done, but I think that once it's done, once, once you kind of see it being what we did see back in with the Nazi Germany situation, people have a heightened sense of we need to do something about it as soon as you see any kind of scintilla of it.
Speaker 1:It's very different than what's going on in the Palestine Israel situation and especially given that Israel is a friendly country, a ally, so to speak, to the United States, and people are like I don't know why we're sending money and that's what I've got some coworkers like they really, really infuriates me that we're sending money to Israel and I get both sides.
Speaker 1:I understand that because you feel like they may be sending money to Israel, support Israel, and in turn they're using that support to kill human beings on the other side and you feel like you're you kind of have some of that blood on your hand. Understandable perspective from that side of things and from the other side of things, to know you. This is kind of the way it works with other countries, when your allies with other countries and they get into conflicts, you're kind of obligated to come to their aid. That's the point, like if you don't come to their aid when there's conflict, there's no point to be an ally. You know what I mean? Like that's kind of what it, what it entails, puts the US in a crazy situation. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:No, I would. It does put us in a really crazy situation, but it I feel like that's what we factored in when we became allies with him, and that's almost like your country is picking a side for you.
Speaker 1:And that's an interesting perspective.
Speaker 2:It's hard to go for the other side when that's what you see it was like. Well, my government think this is good, so I'm going to go along with what they think and go from there and seeing or hearing what's going on to the Palestinians as far as being corralled and cornered and almost squeezed out. I can understand that aspect of it and how frustrating that is, how infuriating and how aggravating that can be, Especially when growing up in the US and how they've treated their minority groups and everything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely so I get it, and especially when it comes to the propaganda of things and wanting to seem like, no, we're the good side and we're doing everything right, we're just complaining, or just doing little things and being extra or whatever, and I was like, no, there's truth in there.
Speaker 1:You're right, there's some substance to that.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Yes, and it's like how do you choose a side when both of them are right and who becomes a mediator as an ally is that our role is to be the mediator and kind of settle things. But I feel like, like you said before, nothing is ever going to settle this, because there's been blood loss, there's been or there's been lives lost, there's been so much hurt and anger and frustration, and so you're never going to appease everyone. So how do you, how do you even work that out? Like what's the beginning of that? I'd hate to be negotiated in this whole process. Like I quit, I'm done. Somebody else take over.
Speaker 1:It definitely seems like there's no real like right answer there and I think that's just due to the heavily nuanced situation here and to some people on one side. They don't think it's nuanced at all, they think it's very clear cut, so that just makes things more complicated. We have two sides of the fight. They have a very clear cut perspective, yeah, and they don't really want to move off that. I definitely appreciate you taking some time out to join us on a little bit of a heavier subject. We'll get back to maybe fun or fun or subjects next time, but I appreciate you taking some time here to know.
Speaker 2:No, thank you for having me. This is definitely something that is crazy for the times that we live in, and we'll see how it plays out in the future.
Speaker 1:For sure, this is Reggie T L. Check us out. Titch our radio, google podcast, apple podcast, spotify, wherever you find your podcast. See you next time, all right.